billa
(old hand)
01/25/20 09:18 AM
Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I am thinking about putting together a low recoil, long range deer rig on an Encore frame that I can put a rifle scope on and hunt whitetail out to 350yards or so. I am thinking 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 Rem. but I wanted to get input from the forum. Anyone that has read my posts knows that most if my big game hunting is with the 358JDJ Contender or with revolvers. I was thinking about a flat shooting Contender barrel but If I am doing it I want the flattest shooter with good performance on deer I can get. I also want the heavier Encore for the lower recoil / rifle scope setup. What do you think?
Also I am not a big fan of brakes as I will probably use this gun in a box blind at times. I will brake if I must but would rather not.


Carpe Diem
(member)
01/25/20 02:01 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

The biggest advantage of the Creedmoor is that its length fits short action rifles. The Encore has no such restriction, so I recommend the .260. Slightly more case capacity, a proven history of long range accuracy, and easy to find (or make) cases. Your choice, but I know which one I?d build.



.


billa
(old hand)
01/25/20 02:32 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Thanks for the feedback on the 260. It seems like a good low recoil option. I am open to other cartridges if members have thoughts.

45MAN
(Pooh-Bah)
01/25/20 02:45 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

CANNOT COMMENT ON CALIBER BUT CAN RECOMMEND THE FAERBER 4 PORT QUADPORT BY MAG-NA-PORT, VERY HELPFUL.

REDHAWK1954
(Pooh-Bah)
01/25/20 02:51 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I got a CVA Scout 6.5 Creedmoor pistol for Christmas. I did put a brake on it and 2.5 x 8 Weaver pistol scope on it. I have not been able to shoot it longer than fifty yards yet but it will shoot three shot groups at that range that a dime will cover. I did kill a doe with it the last day of the season and it really did a number on her with Winchester 125 grain Deer Season XP but the shot was only fifty yards.

karl
(old hand)
01/25/20 03:09 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

There are a lot of options and a few considerations to think about. Do you ever see yourself wanting to shoot farther for hunting or play? What types of bullets? light for speed and flatness or heavy for longer range or the option for both? Would you want to always shoot handloads, or do you want the option of picking up some factory loads if needed.

For deer at 350yds, a 6.5 caliber should work very well with pistol speeds and most hunting bullet choices. You aren't really stretching the legs of the high BC bullets you can get in 6.5 so you can launch them slower, and give up a little of the flatness for reduced recoil if needed.

For what it's worth, I looked at Mid-way's list of ammo and found 70 for the 6.5 CM, 23 for the 260 and 18 for the 6.5x55. I load my own, but I take comfort in knowing there are options at the corner store if I need.

The 6.5cm has a lot of hype that drives many away. As someone who also shoots and reloads a lot of 25-06, I feel the biggest advantage is the prevalence of high BC 6.5 bullets and fast twist barrels. With the long-range focus comes the added benefit to pistol shooters of lower terminal velocity requirements for many of the popular 6.5 bullets. For example, the Barnes 127gn LRX for the 6.5 is reported to have 2x expansion down to velocities of 1600 fps with a BC of 0.468. Most traditional hunting bullets have 1800-1900 minimum velocity requirements. Even the Nosler BTs are up in that range.


billa
(old hand)
01/25/20 03:57 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Karl,
My priority is a 200yard plus hunting rig for Deer size game. Probably varmints at times although I have a 223 Contender with 4x12 scope that I have taken groundhogs and 2 doe Antelope out to 400 yards with.
Like the following:
-Reliable on Deer to 350 yards - or further...
-15 inch barrel
-Rifle scope 4x12 or perhaps higher mag.
-Recoil allowing rifle scope use with no brake if possible.
-I will hand load but easy to obtain cases preferred - factory ammo option a plus
-I like long for diameter bullet. - I want a good game bullet. Considered 7mm 08 but thought the 260 or 6.5 better in a handgun. Looking for advice here.


billa
(old hand)
01/25/20 04:51 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I would possibly consider a CVA Scout 6.5. The entire gun is the price of a TC barrel. I have a Scout muzzleloader and it shoots well. If one comes my way I might jump on a deal. Who else has one?

wvhitman
(old hand)
01/25/20 06:24 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Last few years I've had a big surprise with one particular gun- 6mmAI Encore. Used it in ID for rockchucks-longest shot 412 yds, AZ-55# javelina-177 yds., WV hundreds of groundhogs, deer from 175 to 400 yds. None of these animals moved.
Mine is unported, recoil is minimal, accuracy supreme with 70, 80 gr. BTs, 85 gr. NPTs.
I'm a big 6.5/.284 fan, but the 6mm has opened my eyes. I don't feel undergunned for any of the above animals. A very pleasant surprise.


Ernie
(Distinguished Master)
01/25/20 07:24 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Any of of the short action cartridges based on the 308 Win, 300 Savage, or Creed in 6mm, 25, 6.5, 7mm or 30 cal will easily do what you want

rubicon
(newbie)
01/25/20 07:48 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Cva added 6.5 grendal this year to the scout pistol line up. Caliber works good in sbr ars so should be good in 14 inch pistol. Triggers are excellent on the cva.

billa
(old hand)
01/25/20 07:59 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Doc and Ernie. I was hoping you 2 would chime in with some advice. I am definitely a newbie when it comes to small caliber flat shooters. I am sure I will be back with more questions when I start putting my rig together.

Ernie
(Distinguished Master)
01/25/20 09:03 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

When using a rifle-scope and no brake, I would lean toward the 6mm or 25 caliber.
You can do it without a brake, you just have less fudge room.
A good brake makes a lot of difference and gives the shooter the flexibility to shoot from awkward positions, with light holds


Brenden
(addict)
01/25/20 10:29 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

If you are going to hunt primarily out of box blinds, I'd recommend a 18-20" bull barrel in 25-06. Easy to set on the bags, low recoil, and should be able to reach out to the distance you want.

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/25/20 10:49 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

In 6.5 cal, I have specialty pistols in 6.5-284 Winchester, .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor. Ballistically speaking, I like them from the former to the later. It?s a matter of case capacity.
But, I?m strictly a handloader. So, factory options don?t drive my boat. If they do, you might looks to the Creedmoor as your best option.

If you don?t........the Creedmoor is ballistically a castrated 6.5 caliber. It cannot compete with a fully stoked and throated .260 Remington or above I regards to velocity. Does not mean it won?t work. You just have to decide what factors are important to you. Velocity or factory options.

I have a CVA Scout Pistol in 6.5 Creedmoor. I bought it because I like the platform and the cartridge was second. I?ve shot small groups and killed deer with it, so it works well and I?m pleased. It is probably the best financial option out there for what you are considering. The platform costs less than a TC barrel. And the trigger is much better.

As to the brake.............well........it?s a personal choice. But, I put a brake on EVERY gun I can.

Hearing protection is a must. Regardless of brake or no brake. I can?t afford to lose what little bearing I have left because I was a dumb ass earlier in life and spent too much time around detrimental loud noises. So, now days, if I?m shooting non-suppressed firearms (and even then usually) I have hearing protection. Because reading lips sucks and I?m already there.

So........I like brakes.



Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/25/20 10:58 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

All that to say:

If I was building the gun, I?d go with a long throated .260 Remington and handload from easily available and inexpensive .308 Win brass or proper headstamp if desired. I?d seat heavy for caliber Bullets long and let the gun tell me when to stop stuffing powder. Not a generic loading manual. I?d get as much velocity out of the platform as meets my accuracy requirement and go forth and conquer.

But again, I care little about factory loads. I can beat them all with judicious handloads designed for my particular platform.

You just have to decide your priorities.

Oh, and there would be a brake on the barrel.


billa
(old hand)
01/26/20 12:21 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Guys - Thanks for all the great information and advice. It?s exactly what I am looking for. Lots of viable options to consider. Probably think about it for awhile. It?s a want to project - not a need it. That?s the best kind!!!!

Ernie
(Distinguished Master)
01/26/20 08:54 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

With the bullet you will use, try to figure out what the impact velocity will be at your max distance with each cartridge. You might want to look at what the wind drift will be too. Pick the cartridge that is going to give you what you want or maybe even what will give you more, if you decide to stretch things out further in the future.
I have a Creedmoor, but if I want to push things, I go 6.5-284, and I would use a good solid bottomed brake-I am Partial to Holland's Radial Baffle. Yes, I have several 6.5 short mags in XP's, but for the Encore platform, I would go with the 6.5-284, that is throated properly for the bullet I am using.


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/26/20 09:42 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Not positive, but I think MGM told me that while doable, the rebated rim of the .284 Win case sometimes causes trials with the Encore extractor.

Could be completely wrong. But, for some reason, that?s bouncing around in my head.


Ernie
(Distinguished Master)
01/26/20 09:51 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

 Originally Posted By: Zee
Not positive, but I think MGM told me that while doable, the rebated rim of the .284 Win case sometimes causes trials with the Encore extractor.

Could be completely wrong. But, for some reason, that?s bouncing around in my head.


Well....Check with that!
The 6.5-06 ( I use 25-06 brass and neck it up) will give you a bit more speed than the 6.5-284, at least mine does.


Buck_358
(member)
01/26/20 10:41 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Little late to the party I will offer up three choice:
6.5 x 270 JDJ:
15-inch stainless with SSKs fish gill brake & Tsob base.
Burris 3 x 12 hand gun scope: The recoil is so mild you can spot hits in the scope.
Ballistics:
100s I am working with these now touching 3000fs
120s are at their best at 2800fs
125s & 130s at 2700fs - I do not have anything heavier than 130gr.

7 x 57 Improved 40 degree:
I am a big fan the 284 caliber have taken several Indiana whitetails with this one.
16-inch CM matte finish with SSK arrestor brake & Tsob base
Burris 3 x 12 hand gun scope: Recoil is mild
Ballistics:
120s at 2950fs Used Sierra 120 Pro-hunter with outstanding terminal performance
140s at 2800fs
150s at 2700fs

280 JDJ:
15-inch stainless with SSK fish gill brake & Tsob base
Burris 3 x 12 hand gun scope: Recoil is mild
Ballistics:
120s will touch 3000fs
140s best at 2800fs
To date I have not tried any weights heavier than 140s.
Late last fall I tried a Burris Full Field II 4 x 12 x 42 rifle scope to see if I would like it. (No) I returned to the handgun scope. The rifle scope was not advantageous to my shooting \ hunting style.

Of course, all of these are wildcat roll your own options.

Good luck with your choice
D..


karl
(old hand)
01/26/20 06:15 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

 Originally Posted By: Ernie
With the bullet you will use, try to figure out what the impact velocity will be at your max distance with each cartridge.


There are lots of options being thrown out. I'm not sure how many will give you a low recoil load that you could use a rifle scope with on a pistol without a muzzle break. I think Ernie had a very good point here. Figure out a bullet and then a cartridge that will do what you want. To this end, I would recommend looking at bullets with low terminal velocity requirements that are commonly used in some of currently popular lower velocity or long range hunting rounds such as 300BO or 6.5 CM. I can really only speak knowledgeably about the Barnes offerings, but the Speer 120gn golddot that is used in the 300BO is suppose to be good at low velocities. Some swear by the Hornady V-max, but i'm not a fan of varmint bullets at deer at any velocity. I have heard folks say that some of these high BC 6.5 hunting bullets are really just relabeled match bullets nearly explode at close ranges so do some research.

Barnes has 2 offerings for the 300BO in their TAC-TX line with black tips. a 110 and 120gn bullet with BCs of 0.289 and 0.358. Barnes recommends a minimum impact velocity of 1450 for both of them in hunting situations (2x expansion at 1350). I am using the 110gn in 30-30 contender factory 14" barrel and can launch it at 2500fps which I consider max velocity due to pressure signs. At that velocity, I maintain ~1450fps out to around 400 yards. I ran the ballistics for the 120gn with an estimated MV (matched energies) and came up with the same distance. I think you could get a barrel in 30-30 AI or even 308 and load the 120gn bullet at ~2500-2600fps and have a great 400yd gun (albeit not real flat shooting) The 30-30 could be a contender platform but with an estimated MV of 2500+ with the 120gn projectile and no muzzle break I don't know if a rifle scope would work very well. I do think that such a setup in an encore with a 15" heavy or bull barrel would work very well. I know the 110gn bullet is a deer hammer out to 180yds.

Barnes has ballistics for 3 long range bullets (https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/VOR-TX_LR_Ballistics.pdf) . i know the 6.5 has a terminal velocity requirement of 1600. I'm not sure about the other bullets, but an email to customer service will get you an answer in a week or so.

The 95gn 6CM on their ballistic chart would give you a 0.436 BC and likely a pretty low recoil.
I need to stop, or i'm going to talk myself into another barrel.


racksmasher1
(veteran)
01/26/20 06:23 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Bill, don?t overlook the 308; the 7mm-08, which are my favorites, another is the 250 savage, good luck with your decision

billa
(old hand)
01/26/20 06:31 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I agree that bullet performance will be the key factor when considering a low recoil deer round.

Based on all the input so far I am looking for a 120gr or lighter 6.5 bullet that will kill a deer at 6.5Creedmoor velocities or perhaps a 6mm /243 Bullet that will do the same out to 350yards. I think there are a few out there.

If I end up needing a brake I will get one but I prefer not. I shoot my 358 unported and I plugged my X-frame 460XVR port.

Remember I am out of my element here as I am a lifelong big bore, recoil junkie, bigger is better guy. My favorite deer cartridges are the 358JDJ and the 460S&W. I used to laugh at the guys shooting sub 30 cal rounds now I am considering becoming one. LOL...


wvhitman
(old hand)
01/26/20 08:18 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

billa, I mentioned my 6mm AI Encore. For javelina and deer I only use 85 gr. NBTs. Get complete penetration on most any angle.. Internal damage is around 2", exits are 1 1/4". No brake, minimal recoil. The 2 deer killed at 400 did not move on double shoulder hits. Anything inside that is pretty much thrown to the ground.
I've taken it on several hunts where I normally take my 6.5/.284 and not been disappointed.


billa
(old hand)
01/26/20 08:52 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Doc. That is impressive performance. Perhaps I need to look at 6mm instead of 6.5. Ballistics on the 6mm AI look impressive.

What are your thought on the .243?


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/26/20 09:43 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

That?s a whole different animal.
I love the .243 Winchester.


billa
(old hand)
01/26/20 10:16 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Zee, How does your experience with the 243 compare to Doc with the 6mm AI? Do you also suggest the 85gr Nosler partitions?

Chance WeldonAdministrator
(Distinguished Expert)
01/26/20 10:16 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I can't really add much more to what everyone else has said. But, are you dead set on a rifle scope? I have a 4-12x scope on my granddad's 300 Weatherby, and even at 12x power, I could clearly get a good sight picture of a whitetail while glassing them at 380 yards one morning. In my opinion, it was adequate magnification for that kind of shot. Burris makes a 3-12x pistol scope that would give you a decent amount of magnification while eliminating the issues posed by the short eye relief, which would give you more chambering options.

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/26/20 11:20 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

 Originally Posted By: billa
Zee, How does your experience with the 243 compare to Doc with the 6mm AI? Do you also suggest the 85gr Nosler partitions?


I run 105gr Hornady A-Max or 85gr Sierra HPBT-GameKings, twist rate dependent.
I have no experience with the 6mm AI. But, it?s just a fast 6mm. Same bullet. Different speed. If his experience is with a short barrel 6mm AI, then my 32 inch heavy barrel .243 Winchester is likely moving faster or there abouts. So yeah, I like fast 6mm bullets and am usually a heavy for caliber person.

I?ve culled quite a few deer and pigs with those two bullets and like them both. Preferring the Hornady, given a fast twist.


billa
(old hand)
01/26/20 11:23 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I am open to the Burris scope if need be. I am at the info gathering stage on this rig. Lots of handguns out there with rifle scopes on. I like shooting my Contender 223 with a rifle scope. Lots of rifle scope options out there.

Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/26/20 11:26 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

 Originally Posted By: Chance Weldon
I can't really add much more to what everyone else has said. But, are you dead set on a rifle scope? I have a 4-12x scope on my granddad's 300 Weatherby, and even at 12x power, I could clearly get a good sight picture of a whitetail while glassing them at 380 yards one morning. In my opinion, it was adequate magnification for that kind of shot. Burris makes a 3-12x pistol scope that would give you a decent amount of magnification while eliminating the issues posed by the short eye relief, which would give you more chambering options.


Actually, the eye relief of the Burris 3-12x pistol scope is so atrocious, you might as well use a rifle scope and get better benefits of turrets and field of view.

Burris eye relief in their handgun scopes sucks balls. Well, except for their 2x scope. Imaging that. 😁


Zee
(Gun Slinger)
01/26/20 11:31 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

And just so folks who have never tried, when you use a rifle scope on a specialty pistol, you aren?t getting close enough to get a full sight picture (3 in +/-). You are using the doughnut hole method to take advantage of the higher magnification. And recoil doesn?t really matter because I?m not close enough to get hit anyway.

Something no pistol scope offers.

I had a Burris 3-12x scope on an HS Precision .223 Rem Pistol and absolutely HATED that scope. For the magnification, it didn?t have the turret adjustment and eye relief that advocated actually using it at any great distance.


BIZZMO
(journeyman)
01/27/20 12:56 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I have a 6mm creedmoor rifle and 2 6.5s,the 6mm in my opinion outperforms the 6.5 and uses less powder(less muzzle blast and recoil)for whitetail it would be just fine but for big mule deer and elk the 6.5 would be a better choice.Also IMO it outperforms .243 win. in every category.

Ernie
(Distinguished Master)
01/27/20 06:46 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Bizzmo is your 6 Creed rifle a single-shot and so throated or is the reamer used for it set-up for a magazine?
All things being equal (which they rarely are), the larger case capacity, when you can use the full capacity (Like in a single-shot) where you can throat long depending on the case the larger capacity is going to out perform the smaller one with heavy for caliber bullets. This is also assuming the same/similar pressure.
I have a 308 Winchester rifle (Yes, I said rifle) that runs a 200 grain bullet at 2626 fps, and I could run it faster, but it shoots so stupid good and stays in tune with 42.0 grains of Varget, there is no reason to run it harder, especially when running 20 round plus strings.
I promise you it would not be wise to try to do the same thing with my Remington 700 rifle (20" barrel) with my magazine fed 165 AB's(2580 fps). Or in a another guys 308 using a mag, 168's at 2721 fps (24" rifle). Sticking a 200 grain Berger 200.20x in either rifle that uses mags would be kind of silly. The other disparity is the barrel length of the two. Plus my F-TR rifle is a single shot action and so throated.


BIZZMO
(journeyman)
01/27/20 10:04 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

Ernie- the reamer that was used was for magazine use.I originally wanted a 6mm remington but he lost his reamer in a fire so I had choice of either 6 cm or .243 win.I already had a lot 6.5 cm brass that I could neck down to 6mm so I went with the creed.Also after looking at load data it seems to me that the 6cm was a better cartridge than the .243 albeit slightly.It has a 26" bartlein 1:7.5 twist and it's running 105 gr. bergers at 3000 fps.I know I'm comparing 105 gr.bullets (536 bc) to 140 grain(600 bc)that are going around 2700 but the 6 cm outperforms the 6.5 out to 1000 yds in my rifles.Btw the bc is just a number they put on the box and when you actually shoot them you find that's what they are-just numbers IMO.

RSW
(member)
01/27/20 08:42 PM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I agree with redhawk1954! I also have a CVA in 6.5CM and also killed a doe with mine at fairly close range. I have a 2x6 Bushnell and a APA Little Bastard muzzle brake on it. I have shot it at 100 yards with good results. I have been shooting the same Winchester ammo that redhawk mentions too. With the brake the recoil is next to none.

minnesotahunter
(old hand)
02/26/20 12:27 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

I REALLY like the 7mm08. Reasonable drops out to 400 or more. Great BC and you can go heavier for bigger game if needed. Recoil can be moderate with heavier loads but also super mild.

minnesotahunter
(old hand)
02/26/20 12:30 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

The buck in the pic to the left was 300 yards with the 7mm08. 15 inch barrel. 2x6 Simmons.

short30
(member)
02/28/20 11:56 AM
Re: Encore setup for open country Whitetail

7mm-08 really seemed like the sweet spot to me as well. Very shootable, hits hard, lots of commercial and handload options.