TM
(enthusiast)
11/04/19 01:30 PM
Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Any thoughts on monolithic bullets vs. hard cast?

Whitworth
(Shootist)
11/04/19 02:19 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

 Originally Posted By: TM
Any thoughts on monolithic bullets vs. hard cast?


Yes.


I would search the archives as we have "discussed" this rather thoroughly. My personal opinion is that if you are hunting something really big and you need maximum penetration, monolithic flat-nosed solids are your friends as they will not distort when they contact heavy bone and will stay the course and go deep.

45MAN
(Pooh-Bah)
11/04/19 04:37 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE, IF YOU WANT BULLET INTEGRITY AND PENETRATION, GO MONOLITHIC, OR GO WITH A BARNES BUSTER, OR A PUNCH BULLET. IMHO, "HARD CAST", WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, IS MORE MYTH THAN REALITY.

sixshot
(old hand)
11/04/19 09:09 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

TM, you're trying to make me look bad! If you're hunting north america cast bullets will take care of you just fine. If you go over seas you need a better bullet if your eyes get big. Cast bullets can't keep up when a megatron steps out of the bushes.
Many compound the problem by going with hard cast bullets & then driving them at hyper velocities, they have no chance then. Go a bit softer & a bit slower & your success rate will climb dramatically. Score is 2-1.

Dick


junebug
(Pooh-Bah)
11/04/19 10:49 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

If its big and hairy and can rip your head off or stomp you into a muddy spot solids make sense for penetration from any angle. For most game in the states a good cast not run to hard,or a premium sp or hp will work.

abner
(member)
11/05/19 12:30 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

What about the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator bullets? I have never tried them, but they say its the best of both worlds. You get a non deforming, deep penetrating bullet that because of its shape up front, creates a wound channel more like an expanding bullet. They are all brass or copper.

jamesfromjersey
(Shootist)
11/05/19 12:45 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Tom, Its pretty impressive list with what a handgun hunter can choose today with all the different types and maker`s of bullets... Match the bullet to the game your hunting, with accuracy and bullet placement being number one. A little research on your part will let you know what works with what game animals... Best of luck.

sixshot
(old hand)
11/05/19 12:15 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

I know I always lose these arguments but I have very few bullets in my bullet box. And in the end I'm going to remind you about some people raving on Phil Shoemaker torching that big Alaskan Brown bear with his mighty 9mm with a big 147 gr cast bullet.

Dick


jamesfromjersey
(Shootist)
11/05/19 12:46 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

six... He was real lucky with that

Whitworth
(Shootist)
11/05/19 12:54 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
I know I always lose these arguments but I have very few bullets in my bullet box. And in the end I'm going to remind you about some people raving on Phil Shoemaker torching that big Alaskan Brown bear with his mighty 9mm with a big 147 gr cast bullet.

Dick


LOL! Had the bear actually been charging him, I think he would have wanted something a whole lot bigger in his hands!


Franchise
(Distinguished Expert)
11/05/19 08:28 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Abner....its all HYPE....you'd be better with a solid monometal FP

sixshot
(old hand)
11/05/19 09:36 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

That was my point right from the beginning about Phil, great guy with a great reputation but he almost made a very grave mistake. Not with the bullet but with the tiny little gun. As Max said, if it had been straight on perhaps all 3 of them would have been dead. That's what I said right from the start, no bullet would have bailed them out with the little 9mm.

But again, for North America I can make a cast that will handle anything we have. I can do it with both expansion & penetration or just flat out penetration. That's why my bullet box is practically empty after well over 100 kills with cast up through moose, many elk & some big bears. If they went out the other side I guess I had enough. Guessing I'm still going to lose!!

Dick


45MAN
(Pooh-Bah)
11/05/19 09:42 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

SIXSHOT: YOU ARE A LEAD "MIDAS" AND KNOW HOW TO MATCH ALLOY TO VELOCITY TO THE GAME/TASK AT HAND.

sixshot
(old hand)
11/05/19 11:57 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Ya but Rey, I still can't match you & some of the others when it comes to the really big animals, I have never went there. And that's where the really good, premium bullets rule, I just like to jump in & take a beating every month or so.....

Dick


sw282
(addict)
11/06/19 05:59 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

A poly-coated cast LEAD bullet can be propelled about as fast as

a jacketed one... Want the bullet a bit harder? Simply add some

tin to the pot.. Want the bullet LOTS harder?? Cast them from ZINC.

You just need a bit more heat.. A solid zinc bullet is hard enough

to penetrate most any animal stem to stern.. Where can l get zinc

for casting? Same place lead is found.. Wheel Weights


Whitworth
(Shootist)
11/06/19 09:15 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

 Originally Posted By: sixshot
Ya but Rey, I still can't match you & some of the others when it comes to the really big animals, I have never went there. And that's where the really good, premium bullets rule, I just like to jump in & take a beating every month or so.....

Dick


The beating is unwarranted. In my humble opinion, cast are more than adequate for most animals. The fact of the matter is that you tailor your bullets for that task at hand, and need to be commended for that. You also might see more success than most because you can place your bullets and I sometimes feel that certain "failures" are really a result of poor shot placement either not being realized or not being acknowledged. When the animals get really big and really expensive and/or the animal is capable of doing me some real harm, that is where I draw the monolithic line.

All that said, I used flat-nosed hardcast bullets on a lot of animals over the years and never experienced "caliber sized holes" or slow death or any of the other oft cited complaints. My old .475 with a 420 over 1,350 fps was lightning in a bottle on deer and hog-sized game. Same thing with my first .500 JRH. When they hit, it put the animals on queer street.


Randy M
(veteran)
11/06/19 09:41 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Admittedly, I'm primarily a jacketed guy now. But I also do 99% of hunting in Texas for deer/hogs. I did however load up some cast for my new 41 to carry as a back up in New Mexico for Elk.

Years ago when I hunted exclusively with a 44 SBHH I was using a 300 grain cast over either H110 or 2400. Can't remember the exact load, but it wasn't very hot by 'book' standards.

I noticed over time that even on animals hit in the vitals, my blood trails seemed sparce and long. I attributed it to the 'cast' bullet.

While I'll stay primarily a jacketed guy, I have definitely learned over the years (mainly reading here) that not all cast are equal. Chalk it up to inexperience on my part years ago, to not realize you could actually alter the composition within 'cast' to make it perform differently. I always just ordered a plethora from a reputable company and went from there. I'm not knocking those companies at all, because they obviously have to build for the masses.

Anyway, I'm not 100% sure where I was going with this post other than it's made me want to experiment with different types of cast just for the heck of it. Especially now that we have hogs-galore on our lease. Perfect experiment animal.


sixshot
(old hand)
11/06/19 01:23 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Max is spot on, why risk an expensive hunt & not use the best bullet you can buy, makes no sense. A bullet is a very small expense compared to hunt costs, airline tickets, guns, daily rates, etc. Don't fudge on a bullet.

If you're using a 300 gr cast bullet on deer, that can pose a problem, switch to 240's or 250's, drop the alloy hardness to 9-11 BHN & run your load 1200-1300 fps & you'll shoot length ways through any deer out there. That will get you a blood trail! I can show you many gut piles, hearts & lungs that I've shot with cast bullets that you would swear were shot with a 7 mm magnum.

If there's a univeral mistake with cast bullets it's using a bullet that's too hard. For deer & antelope I've having great success with these Miha HP's but not for the bigger stuff. Still getting lots of penetration, mostly exits with the correct alloy.

Dick


wheelguns
(old hand)
11/06/19 08:59 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Thanks Dick, it's always good to hear from someone with lots of experience. Never would have thought to go with a lighter and softer bullet.
My experience with cast has been very hit and miss. Was always lead to believe to go heavy and hard with a large meplat.
Would love to see you do a write up on all your experiences with cast and taking game with cast. Heck you could probably write a book.


sixshot
(old hand)
11/06/19 10:27 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Wheelguns, I can get in enough trouble just writing a few lines, a book would be a nightmare. This was one of my best bulls ever, taken in the Selway country when a lot of these bulls had never seen a human. Late sixties or early 70's with the old model 44 flat top in the Lawrence #7 shoulder rig. It was a long shot, about 30 yds with a 250 gr Keith & 21 grs of 2400. There were bulls all around me, I had my pick.


Dick


45MAN
(Pooh-Bah)
11/07/19 07:18 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

WESTENERS ARE SO LUCKY WITH THE BIG GAME ABAILABLE TO THEM ON ZILLIONS OF ACRES OF PUBLIC LANDS. DICK: WHAT AN EXPERIENCE, HUNT AND BULL!

sixshot
(old hand)
11/07/19 01:10 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

I mentioned earlier that in the early years, before the wolves were rammed down our throat the Salmon River country & the Selway country was full of elk that mostly had never seen a human. You could tell because they were so easy to bugle in, I was mostly doing it with just my mouth, no call, no grunt tube, nothing.

On one trip with my best friend all through high school & 2 others we were packed into the Selway to one of my honey holes on the Selway River at a place called Thompson Flats (no relation)
Early one morning we were working our way up Witter Ridge which is very steep with lots of switch backs. We had got off the horses & were leading them for a while.

After we were about a mile or so above our camp by the forest service cabin at Thompson flats I decided to bugle (with my mouth) in just seconds a bull bugled back & he was close, very close. Everyone grabbed their rifles, I grabbed my 44 flat top.

We eased along the trail, barely able to see as the sun still hadn't came up & it was a bit foggy this close to the Selway River. I waited 2-3 minutes & bulged again & this time he about took our heads off, he was right above us. We had the wind, it was cold & early morning, cold air is heavy air so it's coming down hill, we had him.

The next time he bugled Eddie's horse started answering! Yikes, that's not good, Eddie punches his horse in the nose with his fist, no good, I'm bugling, the bull is bugling & the horse is whinninying back. I turned & whispered to Danny, I don't think it's going to matter, he's going to run right over the top of us in a few seconds. I was in front bugling, then Danny, then Eddie, then Paul, I called him Shortboy (another story)

Anyway, I finally spotted the bull & he was knocking limbs down & coming straight at me, I could have killed him but wanted Danny to get him so we switched spots & I bugled one more time & BOOM, crash, crash, crash, silence. He turned to me & said, I think I hit him....wow, 30 yds & you "think" you hit him. I didn't say that but how do you miss a Volkswagen at 30 yds.

We worked around another switch back & part way around another one & there he was. Wow, what a bull, huge! This is me with Danny's magnificient bull, don't remember what he measured but way over 300 inches, of course he has it mounted.


Dick


wheelguns
(old hand)
11/07/19 11:39 PM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

The good old days, thanks for sharing Dick.

Randy M
(veteran)
11/08/19 06:07 AM
Re: Copper and Brass vs Hard Cast

Great story Dick. Love the old pics.